Dr. Hallowell Interview Transcript (from our Neurofeedback Moms Facebook group)

[00:00:00] Hey, neurofeedback moms. I am Miriam Bellamy. I’m the mom who started this group. I am an LMFT and I am the director of Whole Family Neurofeedback. As many of you know, one of the benefits of being a neurofeedback mom is that you have access to some of the world’s leading experts on issues that are important to you.

And today we have Dr. Edward “Ned” Hallowell. Dr. Hallowell, as many of you know is the author of many books, but including ADHD, 2.0 and Driven to Distraction, which is a classic in the therapy world. I got my copy probably 15 plus years ago. He is a board certified child and adult psychologist psychiatrist.

Pardon me. He’s a graduate of Harvard and Tulane. He was on the Harvard college. Sorry. Harvard medical school faculty member for 21 years. Holy moly. And he has several Hallowell ADHD centers across the country from east to west. And he has ADHD himself dyslexia, [00:01:00] actually, my younger, I was, he and I were chatting a little bit before we started my both, my daughters have ADHD and the younger one has dyslexia as well.

So I want to say before we start asking Dr. Hallowell questions that we welcome your questions. So, you know, most of you know that we got some questions ahead of time in the group. So we’ll be presenting those to Dr. Hallowell. But if you have a question, as we’re talking, please ask it and we will do our best to get to it.

We’ll be going for about 30, 45 minutes today. Oh, I do have another benefit of being a neurofeedback mom is that we try to get you resources, not just neurofeedback, but parenting and that kind of thing. And so we have a special offer. It was a collaboration done by Dr. Hallowell and Elaine Taylor Klaus.

Can we have with us a couple of weeks ago? So we’ll get to that at the end of the broadcast broadcast. So thank you, Dr. Hallowell for being with us today. I really appreciate. It’s my pleasure. It’s my pleasure. So I have the first question. I get to do that since I’m with you. [00:02:00] And that is you. I’ve heard you say that ADHD is less a diagnosis and more of a trait.

Can you say what you mean by that? Yeah, it, it, it, there are so many positives that go with it. I don’t think it makes sense to call it a disorder because that place is all of it in the exclusively, in the domain of pathology. And, and it leaves out all the stuff, all the positives, which by the way, you can’t buy and you can’t teach creativity, originality, curiosity, drive persistence, tenacity, big heartedness, a strong will, a visionary pioneer, a groundbreaker entrepreneur, a natural grower developing.

Natural change agent. I mean, all of that, which is the ADHD package. Lee is left out in the deficit disorder model. In addition to which the term itself deficit disorder is [00:03:00] completely inaccurate. I have the condition and I can tell you, I don’t have a deficit of attention. I have an abundance of attention.

My challenge is to control it. If it were a deficit, it would be a form of dementia. And it’s not, believe me, I’m not demented. I may be crazy, but I’m not demented. And, and, you know, and that’s, it does a great disservice to these kids and these adults to tell them they have a deficit disorder because that from, from the get-go creates the real disorder, which is shame and fear and believing you’re defective.

Believing you’ve got a deficit disorder. Holy moly. They don’t know what it means, but they know it’s bad. And so from the very start they’re, they’re introduced to feeling bad about who they are. So, so I say, no, don’t call it a deficit disorder. The, the term I have two terms, I favor one is race car brain with bicycle brakes.

Okay. So it emphasizes the positive that you got this amazingly powerful [00:04:00] brain, and then it acknowledges the problem that you have trouble controlling it. So you have weak breaks or in a more fancy term that John and I proposed in ADHD, 2.0, I call it variable attention, stimulus trait or vast because it is indeed a vast condition of folks in so very much of your life.

Variable variable attention, stimulus trait, and the two hallmarks of the condition or attention berries. And the search for stimulus is common. The boredom is our kryptonite. The absence of stimulus is our kryptonite. We can’t do it. We repel from it automatically. The minute we don’t feel stimulated, we go looking for stimulation either literally or mentally, and the variable attention stimulus trait sums it up and it, and at the acronym is vast.

And indeed the condition is vast. We, we it covers so [00:05:00] much of our people don’t realize. It takes in everything. It’s not, it’s not just studying or remembering to pick your socks off the floor or remembering your spouse’s birthday. It’s everything you do from the good stuff, the creative stuff, the original stuff, the innovative stuff, which we specialize in, do the annoying stuff, like having to leave the house three times to come back in and get what you forgot to forgetting what you went into the next room to get.

So leaving your groceries in the supermarket that you just bought, which I did the other day and drove homes and what the heck are those groceries? And I’ve left them on the counter. I mean, how could I do that? And, and, and that’s what we always get. How could you have done that? And the honest answer in our world is, I don’t know, I’ve asked myself the same thing.

How can you possibly have done that? You just bought a cart load of groceries. You had it all packed up and you joyful and left the store leaving. How can you do that? And the [00:06:00] honest answer is, I don’t know, believe me, it wasn’t on purpose. I don’t want to turn around and drive back to whole foods, pick up what I left there, but we spend a fair amount of our lifetime in doing that.

So yes, there is a downside to this, but it is, it is, it is. Puny compared to the upside, which is majestic. Learn how to manage that. But if you don’t, it can be disastrous. I mean, the, the, I’m not saying this, this condition is an unmitigated blessing. It’s not, it can ruin your life. People with undiagnosed add.

So are the holes of the addicted and the unemployed and the multiply divorced, and the people who were simply underachieving and barely getting by. Okay, so it can be an onerous burden, but at the same time, it can be your special power that takes you to the hype. So I was, I was I’m in another mom’s group.

I think it’s called what now? ADHD. You get the diagnosis. What now? Just great group. But one of the moms was like, put on a, a, a [00:07:00] question. My kid, my five-year-old just got diagnosed. How do I tell them they have ADHD? And everybody’s like giving suggestions. I’m like, don’t maybe not maybe talk about talk about it in a different way.

And I think that’s kind of what you’re speaking to. I would say, tell them just say you have ADHD. They won’t know what it means is they don’t worr about it. It’s a stupid term, but then tell them, you’re very lucky. You’ve got a race car, bring your bicycle brakes. You’ve got a Ferrari engine for a brain.

We’re blessed. You have this way powerful imagination. And, and he’ll say, yeah, I do. You’re thinking of new stuff all the time. And but your, your problem is controlling it. Sometimes you can’t. Sometimes you just have to punch your sister. Sometimes you just have to run out in out, out of the door.

Sometimes you just have to get up and leave the table. You, you, you, you, you have trouble putting on the brakes and by the way, that’s a very good way to intervene when you have to intervene. Instead of saying you bad, boy, [00:08:00] you say your brakes are failing. Okay. And I think boy, because it’s more often the boys who have the disruptive form of ADHD, as opposed to the girls who are more of the daydreamers, but race, race, car brain with bicycle brakes really sums it up.

It’s a non-shaming indeed. It’s it’s it’s, it’s an affirming, you know, oh, I’ve got a race car for a brain. I’ve got a Ferrari for a brain. It’s something you can be proud of, but it would also work to be done bicycle brakes, but I say don’t. I’m a brake specialist and I’ve been fixing these kinds of breaks for 40 years.

So we will, once we get your brakes fixed up, you’ll become a champion. You’ll be winning races. And, and so the kid leaves the office inspired, excited. Yeah, someone understands me. I, you know, I don’t know how to stop, you know, and I don’t mean to punch my sister, but sometimes I can’t stop myself the other way that actually that’s another important point.

This is not an excuse [00:09:00] to get out of bad behavior, irresponsible behavior. It’s an explanation to learn how to control it better to learn how to take responsibility more effectively. And I was thinking too, if you’re a parent who has ADHD, you can talk about how you learned to hopefully step on some breaks here. We do have a question from a mom in Ireland.

Her name is Britt, actually. So she asks is food and nutrition important in the treatment of ADHD. What testing should be considered? For example, food allergies, sensitivities genetic screening. Where do you land on that one? Well, food always matters. Matter what you’re doing with what you eat affects.

You know, it’s, it’s the most common drug we take, it’s called food, you know, and, and, and, and what, what we eat has a big impact. Our brains, obviously there are some basic principles stay away from junk food, stay away from additives, stay away from a lot of sugar and try to eat whole foods. Now, beyond that, [00:10:00] you can, you can get as much testing as you want.

Do you know, certainly food allergies are worth noting. There are a number of people with add who do better on a gluten-free diet, a number who do better on a lactose free diet or a dairy free diet. And the only way to find out is to try it. You know, you try what are called the elimination diets. You eliminate this, that, or the other thing.

And then of course there are people who have specific food allergies. And and it’s worth checking out your entire medical system. My son who’s 29 years old has ADHD. And he just went through a period where he was just feeling completely white. He had no energy. He had no, and we didn’t know what was wrong.

Was he depressed? Was he, you know? And so we finally found a doctor who tested his adrenal function and his adrenal function was zero. And she said, I can’t believe you can, even, you can even get out of bed in the morning. Well, he’s so tenacious. As people with ADHD tend to be that he was dragging himself [00:11:00] out of bed to work and whatnot, but.

You really want to make sure you assess the full medical spectrum and it, and you know, things like anything auto-immune which adrenal insufficiency tends to be is connected to add. Autoimmune processes are more common and add as is asthma and an allergy. So that’s a long answer, but it’s a big question and you, you want to get as much of an assessment as you can.

Okay. Wow. That’s huge. I’d never heard that the auto-immune and ADHD. Go hand in hand. Absolutely. Thyroid problems, much more common than add that tends to be autoimmune. Well, yeah. And you were saying that the biggest underdiagnosed population are women and women are, I think 75% of people with auto-immune disorders.

Are women, something like that? Women are, you know, it’s just the shame. Like if you’re a woman who’s achieving at a good level, 99%. If you go for help, you’ll be diagnosed with depression or anxiety, and you’ll be put on [00:12:00] SSRI’s which is not what you need. It’s just a crying shame that these high-achieving human and they, they sure they present with symptoms of depression and anxiety because it’s depressing and anxious making you have untreated add, you know, you’re, you’re, you’re not achieving at the level.

You could be, even though you’re doing very well. So that’s quote unquote depressing and you know, how are you going to screw up next? And that’s okay. Super helpful. Okay. So now we’re, we have a question from Rebecca she says, why do the meds not work for some kids? And it sounds like maybe a little frustration with schools.

I’m not sure, but she says it feels impossible to get educators to understand that the meds are not magic, nor do they make it all just go away. How would you comment on. Well, it’s a big job educating the educators and guess what? It’s a big job and you’re getting the doctors. A lot of doctors don’t know the fine points about these medications and, and, and a lot of teachers don’t either.

So, so, but don’t come off like a, know it all and don’t come [00:13:00] off like, you know, condescending, just try to feed them information from books from articles, summarize. And do something in return. You know, you, you’re saying, I’m asking you to learn this well, you want me to help you with your xeroxing? Or do you want me to help you with bake sale or whatever it is you’re asking the teacher to go an extra mile for you.

And the best way to get that to happen is for you to offer, to go an extra mile for the. Okay. And I’m telling you, you know, rather than complain about the school, make friends with the school, it may sound like a sucking up, but you know, that’s what life is is doing. I’ll do for you. And you do for me. So, you know I’m frustrated too, you know, I’ve been at this a long time.

Okay. And I still can’t believe how many people just don’t understand this condition. I mean, I just talked to you about adult women and how many medical professionals just don’t see it. It’s right there in front of them. But if you don’t know what it is, you don’t know what you don’t, you don’t know what’s a zebra.

If you don’t know, there’s such a thing as a zebra. Yeah. You know, you say what’s that big [00:14:00]striped animal. Yup. Yup. There’s a lot to what we don’t know. And what is. I was talking to somebody yesterday. What isn’t sort of common knowledge what’s up? What becomes obscure knowledge, unfortunately, in our culture in many others.

The important thing here is this is such a good news diagnosis. When you get the right diagnosis, it’s a complete game changer. You go from struggling to excelling, and it can happen in as quickly as a few weeks or months. And it can happen whether you’re six years old or 60 years old, my oldest patient was 86.

And with treatment, he was finally able to write the book he’d wanted to write his whole lifelong. You know, it, it, it it’s, it, it can happen at any age. You can go from being unable to stay in a relationship to falling in love again. Okay. You can go from struggling in your career to excelling in your career.

This is not exaggerating. It really isn’t. I have another person who says my God, they. Adderall next to the ball washers on [00:15:00] the golf course. Cause my handicap went way down it for a country. It helps everything. You do. Everything you do in life improves with, with, with the increased focus. Okay. What would you say?

It’s too risky to mention this on your, on your, on this podcast, but lovemaking gets better when you can pay attention. It’s not too risky. Every facet of life, every facet of life gets better when you can pay attention better. Okay. That’s powerful. Alright. Another question, this one’s from an OT professional.

She sounds again, a little frustrated. How do I make parents understand that it’s not the child, it’s their little brain that makes them do the things they do. How would you respond to that? You, you, you just want to explain to them that the biology, you know, this child is not possessed by the devil. This child is, and believe me, that’s the history of mental health is all about the devil possessing the child.

And then that led to the [00:16:00] treatment plan throughout history was to beat them, spank them, whip them. You know, that’s what kids got until very recently and still to this day in some places, that’s what they get. The man who wrote captain underpants, wonderful mandate Pelkey he was paddled on a regular basis in school right up into high school because he could make people laugh.

And the teachers didn’t make that. So they just kept beating him and. It’s. I love that man. Instead of becoming bitter, you know, he’s now written books that have entertained. I think his sales are like at a hundred million and every, every particularly boy knows captain underpants. My daughters know Captain Underpants.

And Dave felt that he has both add and dyslexia. Okay. He’s the sweetest man in the world, but he was viciously abused in school. And that’s what happened to these kids, you know, for most of human history, they, they were beaten and it was often in the name of God to beat the devil. And as a practicing Episcopalian, [00:17:00] it just makes me cringe.

But the way you get through to anybody is with knowledge presented in a pleasant and polite way, because this is unbelievably freeing and liberating teachers want to do right by their children. And if you can say this information, this child will go from being a pain in the butt to being someone you absolutely can reach that teacher will listen.

So I wonder how much could change. If the title was changed, there’s, there’s so much stigma associated with ADHD. Is that something you are working on or how do you get it changed? And my last book we proposed vast, you know, they’re able attention, stimulus trait. That’s pretty new. I, I like race car brain with bicycle brakes.

Cause that’s plain English and you could say, yeah, race car, brain. I love that. And, and kids and adults for that matter can relate to it. You know, we are, we’ve got a lot of ideas. Our brain [00:18:00] doesn’t stop and our challenge is to control it. You know, and that’s why that is so completely misleading or we’ve got to control it.

Another analogy I use, think of Niagara falls. It’s incredibly powerful, but until you build a hydroelectric plant, it’s just a lot of noise and missed a lot, indeed. So, so I often say I’m in the hydroelectric plant business. Once you build your hydro electric plant, you can light up the state of New York.

What’s the youngest child you’ve worked with?

Okay. Five. Is that a typical age when they begin to get the diagnosis? Is that when they, when they go to school, right? Sometimes even four, but the youngest I’ve done is five and the youngest I’ve put on medication is five. Okay. By the way, people are so afraid of medication. It’s, don’t be afraid of it.

Learn about it. If you use it properly, it’s very effective. And 80% of the time, very effective. [00:19:00] What do you, what you ought to be afraid of or not the side effects of medication, but the side effects of not taking medication untreated add year after year of failure, frustration, punishment, humiliation, shame, you know, enough views of that.

And your self-esteem has Gonzo and, you know, to re put it back together as a very young. And these adults who were just completely misunderstood and mistreated. Now, Dave Pelkey is a big exception because he’s a beautifully happy man. But believe me, there’s a lot of adults out there who suffered as children because their ADD was undiagnosed and they were mistreated whose steam will never recover.

So I guess this is a group with people, cause people look for neurofeedback because they are Concerned about medication. So for example, with my daughter, from this big, she was under weight. So if she were to be on ADHD medication the eating thing would be a real [00:20:00] problem. How do you, how do you think about that or address that for people.

Well, the non-medication treatments are great, you know, and there’s a whole, I mean, I’ve all of my books contain a lot of interventions that do not involve medication. If we know the reason, then medication only works for 80% of people. That means 20%, it won’t work. So, so you, you, you, but, but everyone should have the full array of non-medication.

Treatments which begins with education. I mean, that’s the one that everyone that you need to reframe the condition. So you see it in folks, I don’t treat disabilities. I help people unwrap their gifts. So you, you see that this is a process of unwrapping your gifts of identifying and developing your talents.

That’s what I’m in the business of doing I’m in the business of helping people identify and develop their talents, unwrap their gifts. So you start with that. And then, and then specific interventions, well, connection is the most important you need [00:21:00] to get love from your parents. And then, and then, and then good treatment from teachers and coaches, you know, so positive connection and, and that’s hard to come by these days of, of COVID.

So I call it the other vitamin C vitamin connect. And so, you know, it, you know, it fears the worst learning disabilities go to problems back, going to learn in a fear-filled environment. So positive connection is, is, is very important. And then, and then physical exercise is tremendously important. And in the new book we talked about.

Yeah, cerebellar stimulation, balancing exercises, which can, which can also produce a real change in, in in symptoms, your specialty neurofeedback, when it works, it’s an absolute godsend. It’s, it’s fantastic. You know, and, and the basic principle is, you know, your brain training. You’re, you’re helping your brain.

Rewire learn new skills. And that’s what all of these cerebella stimulation balancing acts the same thing, the physical exercise, same thing. It’s [00:22:00] all ways of rewiring, rejigging your brain so that you can, you can do the things that you find difficult and you can do even better. The things that you find easy.

Well, and I keep going back to that, putting on the brakes thing cause that’s, that’s a big part of what had helped me with. Yeah. Okay. What haven’t, what, what haven’t I asked?

Actually I do have a question about parent coaching because I saw, I don’t know how familiar you are with the systems therapy or systems theory, Beau and family systems theory is where I come from. Yeah, a big issue, right? It can be us parents getting very anxiously focused on the kids. How much parent coaching do you do?

How, how, how do you approach that? Well, parent coaching is really important of all of, all of all the books I’ve written, I’ve written 20 books. And my favorite one is not [00:23:00] about ADHD. It’s about parenting. It’s called the childhood roots of adult happiness. And in that short book I really put in. What parents, you know, a pretty foolproof recipe of how to raise children so that they will grow up to be confident, happy, fulfilled, and and it’s, it’s very straightforward and I’m sure you did it with your, with your kids.

It begins with connect. And then it moves on to play and play is any activity in which your imagination gets involved in that. And that really, I think it’s the highest form of brain activity that we have play. Yes. Yes. Play is not just what you do at recess play is any activity in which your imagination gets activated.

So, and the easiest way to instigate play is to ask an open-ended question. Where does this circle begin? And what does the circle end or wider, good things, bad things happen to good people or what’s [00:24:00] infinity, or why did your brother have to get born? You know, open-ended questions that engages the imagination and that is.

The brain really gets activated. That’s where we’re at our best. I mean, all children are at their best when they’re, when they’re in imagination. So, and, and the opposite is doing exactly what you’re told and that’s what too many parents and teachers. That’s what they keep wanting their kids to do. What I tell you to do, be obedient, sit down and be still.

And they stand up when grandma comes into the room, kiss, grandma, even though she don’t want to, you know, a whole bunch of things and parents certain say, how do I get my kid to do what I want my kid to do? And I’ll tell you the answer to that way, by the way. Yeah. Is by giving your child 20 minutes a week of special time.

Special time is 20 minutes [00:25:00] where you say to your child, you in just one child, you have my undivided attention, no cell phone, no screen. We will do anything. You want to do anything as long as it’s safe, it’s legal and we can afford it. So for those 20 minutes, I am yours. I am your fairy godmother

I will do whatever you want for the 20 minutes. Is it too old? Are my kids too old to do that? No,

your husband is not too old. You know, 20 minutes a week of special time. I am going to totally try this. And it sounds really fun. You’ll have all of them eating out of the Palm of your hand,

it’s a truly magical. So we do have a question from someone that just came in this person says any advice on finding a good provider in your state or region. [00:26:00] Well w if you, if you can’t get it from your primary care doctor or from another mom, probably the best single sources and other mom a good place to start as the nearest medical school, because every medical school has a department of child psychiatry.

And anyone who works at a medical school as well-trained and you know, it has to pass a lot of tests and all that kind of stuff. Okay. We may not have the best personalities in the world, but they’ll be knowledgeable. They’ll know what’s what, and so if you, if you can’t get a referral from another mom or from your, your PCP, then, then go to the department of psychiatry and then child psychiatry at your nearest medical school.

So tell me about the Hallowell Hallowell centers. You have five different ones. I think I have one in Sudbury, which is just outside of Boston, where I live and we have one in New York city in Manhattan on west 72nd street. And then we have one in Palo Alto out there, you know, near San Francisco. And then we have two of them in Seattle.[00:27:00]

Okay. And so tell me about those centers. They’re just their staff was psychiatrist. Are they trained specifically by you? Yeah, they’re all trained in my strength-based approach. You know, basically asked instead of ADHD, they’re all trained to unwrap gifts, not, you know, diagnosed deficit disorders and they’re, and it’s multi-discipline multi-disciplinary psychiatrists, psychologists, social workers.

And then we have what we call a coach at this, because most people with ADHD need a coach rather than a therapist. Okay, then you to help them stay on track and then that coach then can become a therapist. So we call him coach this, and it’s sort of a, it’s sort of a hybrid of, of a, of a coach and a therapist. And then we will use whatever.

Like if someone wants to do neurofeedback, we’ll, we’ll set that up for them and some more. Wants to have a nutritional consultation. [00:28:00] We’ll set that up. If someone wants to have a course of cerebellar stimulation where we connect them with the zing method, which is, which is really good. So I’m, I’m a completely eclectic, whatever works as long as it’s safe and it’s legal and you can afford it.

That’s my approach. This, this field has been really brought down by people who are territorial and are trying to push their way is the only way. And it’s just not, it’s just not right. There’s many different ways to, you know, unwrap gifts. Not, not just one way. Absolutely. What other question came in? Can you tell about the science behind the cerebellum?

Yes. Eh, that’s chapter three of my new book, ADHD 2.0. Okay. And it is indeed brand new science from Jeremy schmahmann at Harvard medical school who found there’s a part of the brain at the base in the back of the brain called the cerebellum. And it’s like a small clump kumquat shaped, just the classic description.

And it’s [00:29:00] a, it’s a small clump of neurons and it, but people don’t realize it is 10% of brain volume, but it’s 70% of the neurons in the brain are in the cerebellum. So, what schmahmann discovered is it’s so much more important than any of us ever realized. When I was in medical school, I was taught that the cerebellum is in charge of balance.

And what’s called automaticity. When you learn how to do something without thinking about it, like riding a bike well, turns out there’s a lot more going on there than that. And this is what shmauman and found out that the cerebellum. Is richly. And this is the miracle of brain scans is richly connected to the frontal part of the brain, which is where all the action is in learning and reading and emotional control and focusing and attending.

And by indirectly stimulating the frontal part of the brain by stimulating the cerebellum at the back of the brain, you, for some reason, by going that route. [00:30:00] You get marked improvement in reading emotional control focus organization, executive function, all of that by, by, by coming in the back door, by getting there through the cerebellum and you, and you stimulate the cerebellum by challenging balance.

So you stand on one leg, you stand on one leg with your eyes closed. You stand on a wobble board. You sit on an exercise ball with your legs off the floor. Or you go out on your skateboard or you go surfing or, you know, lot of sports or you go skiing in Colorado. You’re, you know, skiiing heavens. So that is really good.

Or when you get dressed undressed, you don’t sit down. So you put on your socks and underwear without sitting down and you, you may Teeter a little bit, but that’s also good for balance. So if you challenge balance on a daily basis, not only is that good for your core, but it’s really good for your brain and that that’s the new discovery.

It’s very exciting. [00:31:00] It’s it’s, it’s another non-medication intervention, but that’s very promising. That’s powerful. Okay. Well, we are running out of time. I wanted to share, I mentioned at the beginning that we have a special offer, which I will just share my screen. So Elaine, in a second, Elaine Taylor Klaus, who was with us a couple of weeks ago and Dr. Hallowell did a collaboration where they put together a short series of videos. Let’s see if I can, that didn’t work. Wasn’t that pretty? That was my screensaver. So let me see if I get this, wait this back up and then maybe it’ll work. Okay. Now, try it. There it is. So we are offering, offering it’s about a 20% discount on this collaboration is it is, it’s a short series of videos and it’s going to be sort of very packed, very powerful. It’s going to have an information aspect. It’s going to have a coaching aspect of workshop. And then a 30 minute interview is a bonus, which is an interview with Dr. Hallowell discussing [00:32:00] his five steps to mastery.

So anyone who asks for this in the comments I’ll PM you the discount, sorry, the link to the discounted offer. So thank you so much for Being willing to be part of that offer. And thank you so much for this interview. I’ve I’ve just been fascinated and I can’t wait to talk to you for five minutes when we’re off air, any final thoughts?

Wonderful. It’s been a pleasure. I, I and if anyone wants to reach me, just go to my website, drhallowell.com wonderful. Yes. Thank you, Dr. Hallowell. We’ll see you soon. Alright, bye.